Formation debate

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Ra-fa_br

Posts : 660
Join date : 2013-11-04
Location : Boston
20141119

Formation debate

Post by Ra-fa_br

I think when discussing formations, shot guns and pistols(new formation to madden) splitting hairs.

So we have
I
Strong
Weak
Near
Far
Single back
Pistol
Shotgun ECT...

Now pistol has variations of:
Strong, weak, full house, ace, 3 wr, 4 wr
Shot gun also has numerous packages, I am in the thinking that running pistol ace is is totally different than strong. When claiming someone is running the same formation. Pistol lumps all these together and because it is an added formation a couple of maddens ago they lumped everything together. Some people claiming these are the same formations are spliti guards IMO, I think I'm in the minority, just curious how far I've strAyed from the pack.


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Post on 11/19/2014, 1:05 pm by Helldawg66

pistol has variations like the way shotgun does and the way some of the under center formations do. They're clearly varied formations with different strengths....like pistol's 3 different alignment full house formations compared to a regular one might be better for certain runs, and in some cases, certain passes. Ace and Ace Twins have different lineups. Strong has the advantage of putting 2 rb's in with good plays that can utilize either rb if called correctly. Trips is basically the same as shotgun trips, and the bunch has imo better pass plays than shotgun bunch for the most part.

People use a certain formation as a base, but nitpicking pistol to death because "IT'Z ALL DA SAME" is bullshit because there are a lot of different sets. As long as you mix in under center stuff I don't really see a problem with having a playbook heavily based in shotgun and pistol....Pistol and Shotgun have some of my better plays, but I like using Iform Pro, and in some cases weak I or Iform Twins....Singleback Ace gets overlooked all the time, twin te, and several of the jumbo packages have great plays for the right situations. People just need to learn the difference and know how to mix properly.

Being in a lot of pistol and shotgun shouldn't be an issue because there are tons of plays and sets to pick from even if you're not under center....and there are plenty of good under center plays to add in for a balanced game.

Pistol Ace Twins with 2 receivers on the left and 2 te's with 1 rb in the backfield is a hellofalot different than Pistol Strong which plugs your 2nd string RB in at the fb position and has a few cool runs to utilize them in if you don't use your #1 back on the play. The regular Ace is good and has a nice mix of runs and passes similar to the singleback ace...
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Post on 11/19/2014, 1:34 pm by tony87blue

look back at Panthers vs Bucs from a couple games ago....

first 17 of 18 plays were gun/pistol from Panthers O, 1 single back (stopped watching my archive midway through 2nd qtr)

yes, i commend rafa for using different SETS and giving different variations of the FORMATIONS but imo this is a clear violation of what the rule is intended to be. i'm not saying you must use all formations or that you cant use the same formation more than once or consecutively, but this is imo a clear example of what not to do.

very first drive of game, the panthers used gun formation on 9 consecutive plays that included 5 consecutive plays of a 1 hb 1 te 3 wr set of gun formation (did it a total of 7/9 plays on that drive, the other 2 plays were 1-2-2 set of gun formation). this was followed by 6 consecutive plays of a pistol formation play (different sets but still pistol formation none the less).

this happened through 3 qtrs then after making some stops the panthers finally started to use more under center stuff.

just my opinion of course, rafa's argument is that he's just playing to his teams strengths which i can see...except that he rarely runs any read option plays Wink

Post on 11/19/2014, 2:37 pm by titanbrian

You really think after making some stops in the third quarter that he decided to run more under center stuff?

I can see if a guy A gaps me fast, that moving the QB back in shotgun gives me more time to throw. I've can't belive someone would think the other way around.

I try to never use the same play twice in a game, I try to give ad many looks as I can using personnel. I've never been aware of how many times my QB lines up under center or two or four yards back. Should I be?

Is I-form, near, far, and split back, considered the same cuz my QB under center, and I have 2 RB's. I'd always consider that 4 different things.


Post on 11/19/2014, 2:45 pm by Pkmn93

Formations are different, yes. But you should be concerned when a guy runs the same play but it is named differently. For example Strong power, Bears power. Same play, but written different. Even some passing plays are the same.
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Post on 11/19/2014, 3:10 pm by tony87blue

why wouldnt he change things up if i'm making stops? if the game goes from 20-0, to 20-10 and your offense is getting stopped after working all game long why wouldnt you make a change? whether if it's from under center to pistol/gun or vice versa? you'd be stupid not to make a change to ensure the game doesnt turn on you and it's too late. so yes, i do believe that after i finally started making stops that he decided to make a change to his O....the stream is there, i didnt make up the numbers.

as far as your under center question, i'm with you i consider those all different. just like i consider pistol and gun different....however the fact is that for 3 quarters it was all primarily pistol or gun which imo is not in the spirit of "sim". it's 2 formations out of the many that there are in this game to be used.

it's whatever, again just my opinion...i know i wont ever just run 2 formations all game long so i guess i just have a different version of "sim"
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Post on 11/19/2014, 5:02 pm by Ra-fa_br

First drive was a total of 14 plays (for a touchdown)

First drive panthers
212 pistol weak pass
122 ace dive ISO
113 gun pass
113 gun pass
122 gun read option run
122 gun pass
113 gun pass
113 gun pass bubble screen audible
113 gun toss
113 gun run ISO
113 gun run power
221 full house pistol run dive
113 pistol run read option
221 full house pistol run 01 TRAP TD

Second drive
212 pistol weak run triple option read
212 pistol strong pass
212 pistol strong audible to iso Td run

Third drive twitch crashed


Captain sim first drive
212 strong I counter run
212 I run slam
212 I run ISO
113 shotgun power run
122 a run counter
Punt

Second drive
113 single back pass
122 single back twins inside zone
122 ace off tackle
Punt

Third drive
113 gun pass
113 gun pass
122 gun pass
113 gun pass
Punt
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Post on 11/19/2014, 5:04 pm by Ra-fa_br

I changed because I wanted to not be able to choose read option and have cam fumble. Like i said if you were going to come back you were going to have to earn it, I wasn't about to throw a pick or have my qb fumble... 7/8 of your first plays were runs btw


I thought the game was fun... Thought it was sim... Just pointing some stuff out
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Post on 11/19/2014, 5:51 pm by tony87blue

Ra-fa_br wrote:
First drive panthers
212 pistol weak pass
122 single back ace dive ISO
113 gun pass
113 gun pass
122 gun read option run
122 gun pass
113 gun pass
113 gun pass bubble screen audible
113 gun toss
113 gun run ISO
113 gun run power
221 full house pistol run dive
113 pistol run read option
221 full house pistol run 01 TRAP TD

Second drive
212 pistol weak run triple option read
212 pistol strong pass
212 pistol strong audible to iso Td run

Third drive twitch crashed
pistol strong twins run
pistol weak twins flex pass
gun y-trips te slot - your twitch cuts out before you select play


Captain sim first drive
212 strong I counter run - 14yds
212 I run slam - 11 yds
212 I run ISO - 3 yds
113 shotgun power run - 5 yds
122 single back run counter - 2 yd loss
Punt

Second drive
113 single back pass
122 single back twins inside zone
122 ace off tackle
Punt

Third drive
113 gun pass
113 gun pass
122 gun pass
113 gun pass
Punt

That's 19 plays in your first 3 drives and ONE TIME you used a play that was NOT pistol or gun formation...in those 19 plays you went at one point calling 9 straight gun plays followed by 8 straight pistol plays. and i'm sure play #20 was fixing to be a gun formation play but the archive skipped. i never accused of you of NOT mixing up your play calls btw...i'm called out your choice of formations! BIG difference....

yes, i ran the ball on you to start the game...i wanted to set a tone in this game. but notice i used DIFFERENT FORMATIONS? Single I, Strong I, I-Form, Gun....so, i called all run plays but did i do it from just 2 formations? negative!! my very first drive (5 plays) i already used more FORMATIONS than you did thru 3 qtrs! i stopped watching the stream when it cut out (14-0, 2nd qtr, your 3rd drive still 6 mins to go) but i dont imagine your formation selection changed much, again i sensed it while i was playing and the stream backs it up. (here, i'll watch to start 3rd qtr...o look, 3 consecutive pistol plays (1 option, 2 pass the last which gets int'd). i fumble at my 11, what do you do? gun, gun, gun, kick fg.....ok, i've had enough. this continues until i start putting together some stops and the games goes from 20-0 to 20-10 and you FINALLY start trying something different

yes, call me captain sim or any other name if you want....again, my version of sim does not mean i'm going to come out in the same 1-2 formations all game long!

Post on 11/19/2014, 5:57 pm by Helldawg66

So different pistol sets isn't mixing it up but different variations of I-Form is because Weak-I, strong I, and Iform are listed as different formations only because they allow you to use different personnel in certain packages or variations? from that logic he could make the same argument against you for spamming different types of I-form.....I formations being a different formation than pistol sets is kindof a bullshit argument.

Post on 11/19/2014, 5:58 pm by titanbrian

But I-form and strong are the same except FB moved over, and you call them different then wouldn't you have to call pistol strong and pistol weak different?

Post on 11/19/2014, 5:59 pm by titanbrian

Or what helldawg said, lol

Post on 11/19/2014, 6:00 pm by Helldawg66

You can say the same thing about someone using near and far since a lot of people like those, since they're the same goddamn thing only they're just flipped.
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Post on 11/19/2014, 6:12 pm by Ra-fa_br

This is my point all together

Pistol weak is the same 'formation' as pistol strong
But I form, strong, and weak are different? Kind of splitting hairs here

Post on 11/19/2014, 6:21 pm by titanbrian

It's history, when QB's were always under center they named every formation something different.

Then came shotgun, and the re-created all those formations with the QB back 4 yards, that they could.

Then, duh, pistol. And all they formations they could recreate with QB back 2 yards.

Still different formations, madden just groups them up for the stupid people, right?
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Post on 11/19/2014, 6:45 pm by tony87blue

Well for as long as I've known single I, iform, weak I, strong I, full house, near, far, gun have ALWAYS been known/referred as DIFFERENT formations. Add in the pistol now a days too but its DIFFERENT!

Again, this may be just my version of what I consider Sim. Everyone has their own version but isn't that why we have rules? To have us all play within the same version? Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the very first written rule in regards to play calling state we are to use as many FORMATIONS as possible? Again, for as long as I've know all those FORMATIONS have been known to be different.
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Post on 11/19/2014, 6:55 pm by tony87blue

And oh noes....I ran the ball on 7/8 plays to start game. Once again, look at it....14, 11, 3, 5 yard gains before I finally start losing yardage trying to run. Forgive me for running the ball when my opp wasn't stopping me...question is did I do it from strictly iform? Or single back? Or gun?....NO, I used 4 different formations and I believe it was counter, Iso, slam so not like I was abusing a type of run play or formation.....but go ahead Rafa, try to deflect some accusation on me
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Post on 11/19/2014, 7:47 pm by Ra-fa_br

I already said I thought the game was a good game. It's pretty clear hairs are being split here. Weak I and strong = two formations. And a more level headed person can see that it that is in fact true than one would presume strong pistol is different than weak pistol and single Hb set pistol formations ECT...
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Post on 11/20/2014, 11:26 am by chrebet1024

I'm assuming the debate is coming from a bucs/panthers game?

The pistol formation has become a very dirty word as it relates to madden nowadays....main reason is BC running out of it seems to work better than the traditional formations.

I actually said this on the bears boot post.....i think for a team to run pistol all game, they really really really have to do a great job at mixing it up.

Nobody in real life runs pistol on every down.  The trend of two years ago went away in a hurry.  It's still used, but not even the skins and 49ers run it every play anymore (where two years ago it was their go to formation.)
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Post on 11/20/2014, 12:13 pm by tony87blue

well actually rafa just asked a general question about formations....i just decided to throw some dirt on him and point out that imo he abused mainly 2 formations for the majority of game. yes, salty that i once again lost to that scrub Wink

some people seem to think that because it's pistol weak, strong, spread, bunch that it means they are mixing it up...i am of the thought that that is not the case. formations = single back, iform, weak i, strong i, gun, pistol, full house, far, near....the pistol ace, bunch, weak, full house, strong, spread etc are all SETS just like they are in the other formations!

tell me it's ok to run pistol & gun on 19/20 plays to start a game and i'll start doing it too! wait....na, again, imo that's not in the spirit of sim and i would never play like that. do i have a drive here and there where i use gun or single back for 5 straight plays? yes of course, but there's a difference between doing it on 1 or 2 drives per game as opposed to doing it all game long...least imo
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Post on 11/20/2014, 12:46 pm by Ra-fa_br

So far you're the only one thinking pistol weak/ pistol single back ace/ pistol strong/ pistol 4wr are one formation.

And to then to say weak/ strong and Norma I formations are different?

Is the game laid out like that yes, but common football knowledge it's either one or the other, either they are all different formations or they are all different sets.
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Post on 11/20/2014, 12:47 pm by Ra-fa_br

And ya I saw cheeb mention it in the bears departure, and tony and I had this debate on the chat. Just throwing it out there trying to clarify stuff
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Post on 11/20/2014, 2:36 pm by tony87blue

for the last time......

Pistol = FORMATION; weak, strong, ace, twins, bunch, etc = SET!!!
Singleback = FORMATION; ace, dual te, twins, trips, bunch = SET
Gun = FORMATION; ace, 5 wr, bunch, spread, trips = SET

it's not a different formation just because you use different personnel/sets!!

for as long as i've known, no one ever calls weak or strong i by the saying iformation with fb offset to differentiate ....IT'S CALLED WEAK I or STRONG I BECAUSE THEY ARE DIFFERENT!! it's also been in the game like this from day 1....

think of it this way, when teams line up in the Pistol....do nfl players, coaches, announcers say they are in Shotgun formation or do they say they are in the pistol? i mean what's the difference to name them different or call them out different....the qb is lined up closer/rather from the C, or how about the HB being lined up behind the QB instead of beside? the NAMES are different because they are different FORMATIONS just like IFORM is different than Weak I or Near is different than Far, or Full House is different than Weak, Strong, Iform!! they are different FORMATIONS, the SETS just put different personnel groupings in certain places within the FORMATION

let's forget about the whole pistol/gun debate crap....

let's just say hypothetically, if your opponent ran iform for the majority of game...does it make it ok just because they used twins, normal, 3 te, heavy, 3 wr....by your definition, they used different formations right? say for instance they started the game in iform and weak i for 19 of 20 plays....you call that mixing up formations (as the rules say we ought to do)? oh wait, by your definition iform and weak i are the same thing since i'm the only one that thinks they arent?
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Post on 11/20/2014, 6:07 pm by chrebet1024

Golden Rule = Never abuse any one thing

So...in essence, using pistol all game is abusing the golden rule.

We use this rule...and most leagues do so it "sparks" both teams to use different things..increasing strategy.

Are there always variables throughout the game?  Yes, of course.
For example, if the defense is stacking the box with no safety help all freaking game...I would never fault the offense for bombing it on every play.

One leads to the other.  Since the defense is not mixing it up enough, the offense CAN'T.

We shouldn't use one formation on every play.

Post on 11/20/2014, 8:10 pm by titanbrian

Golden rule still intact, using their game break down I see it like this.
45% shotgun
29%pistol
16%singleback
6% iform
3% strong

I'm not sure my breakdown, but my playbook is 50% shotgun for sure and I haven't had a complaint yet. (Yet)

This break down doesn't look bad to me, am I wrong?

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